InTransition Episode 67 Bob Pearson

InTransition Episode 67 Bob Pearson Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome once again to InTransition, the podcast that examines the practice of content marketing in government and the public sector. My name is David Pembroke, and thanks for giving us just a little bit of your time this week to spend with us as we speak to someone who is really going to give you some insights that are going to be of real value to your work, but as we do each week, we start with a definition of just exactly what content marketing is as it relates to government and the public sector because it is important that we do understand just what it is in these very early stages of content marketing. Content marketing is a strategic, measurable, and repeatable business process that relies on the creation, curation, and distribution of useful, relevant, and consistent content. The purpose is to engage and inform a specific audience in order to achieve a desired citizen and/or stakeholder action. To our guest today. Our guest today is Bob Pearson who is the president of the W2O Group, a group of 3 marketing and communications companies. Prior to working at W2O, Bob was the Vice President of Communities and Conversation for Dell where he developed their first global social media efforts, and before that, he was Head of Global Corporate Communications for Novartis Pharmaceuticals. Bo e e tl ote the ook Sto tizi g: What's Ne t Afte Ad e tisi g, a d he s also itte a ook alled P e-co e e, hi h e a i es si ila so ts of topi s. Bob is also a frequent speaker on digital marketing at the Syracuse Center for Social Commerce, and importantly, for this audience, he also speaks at the US State Depa t e t s Ma keti g College. Bo Pea so, tha ks e u h fo joi i g us InTransition. Yeah, it s pleasu e to e he e. Bo, liste. Sto tizi g. I i t igued it e ause it eall is a out hat s e t after advertising, but is it the time yet to read the last rights to traditional advertising? That s a i te esti g a to sa it. Yeah. No, it s a e olutio that s i p og ess. If you think of the traditional PESO model, Paid, Earned, Shared, and Owned, we all knew that we grew up in a world where advertising was number one. We then revolved around that to figure out how our campaign could be done. The big change is occurring now because of technology and the use of analytics is we can see exactly who our audience is proactively. We can actually identify who we want to reach, and then we can align with them in many different ways. Because we can do that, earned and shared media are becoming far more important than ever. Owned media can actually be introduced via earned and shared media more effectively, and paid media can be used more strategically. Ad e tisi g defi itel does t go a a. It s al a s goi g to e i po ta t, ut it ill In Transition Podcast - contentgroup Page 1 of 12

be used much more strategically and much more as a way to take earned and shared content, and help it actually extend its life and reach the right people. What are the skills that communications teams, particularly in the government and public sector area, are going to have to have to make the most of this transition is taking place? Yes, so e talked Fo e a ple, the US State Depa t e t. We fo us o the fu da e tals ost of all hi h is, Do ou a tuall k o ho ou audie e is? Do you know the behaviour you want to occur? Do you know the content that you eall should deli e, a d h? Do ou k o ho ou ill dist i ute it? That t pe of thi g, ut I get do i to asi s like the o ld, despite looki g like it s so ig a d the e s so u h data all o e, it s a tuall e y few people, for example, who really drive shared conversation. Do we know the top 50 people who are driving the majority of shared conversation? Do we know the top keywords that are actually aligning what we talk about with the story we want people to ea h? It s thi gs like that he e e ha e to like stop fo a se o d, ake su e e do t ake the o ld too o ple a d sa, What a e those s alle a tio s that a e highl fo used that e a take to allo us to get ou sto out to the ight people? What ou e e ou agi g people do is eall to e st ategi a out thei communication before they start doing things? Yeah, e a tl. If ou thi k of like Take T itte as a e a ple. If ou look at Twitter, people for years have always been wanting to just expand how many people follow them on Twitter. What I say is, who cares? What really matters is, who are the people that actually will move your content? Think about Twitter like it s Reute s. Can you follow the right people, so he ou sa so ethi g that s ele a t, ou e goi g to i p o e ou ea h %, %, %? That is ot a ua tit ga e at all. That s a ualit ga e. How do you go about trying to find the right people and try to understand who those right people are? Yeah. Today, the most sophisticated way is to use algorithms where we can see exactly who actually drives conversation or who shares the most, and you can see that in order mainly because you can identify human behaviour, and then built algorithms around that human behaviour, but if you have none of those tools and you have zero money for your budget, you can still look at who is actually most important to you. Most organisatio s We get i to this ith the go e e t. If you have no budget, at least look at who actually is moving your content and telling your story well, and then look at who follows them, and see if you can see some superstars in there that eall like hat ou e talki g a out, a d the follo the, and keep doing that In Transition Podcast - contentgroup Page 2 of 12

a d see Let ou audie e a tuall take ou to the e t audie e, a d ou a Anyone can do that. If you have the money, you can get very sophisticated, but a people do t ha e that, so that s he e e ofte sta t. Okay. In Storytizing, you raised this notion of this idea of audience architecture. Can you explain that to me a little bit more? Yes. The way that we got into this is actually a neat story. A couple years ago, we were sitting around and complaining to ourselves how Google really will never be effi ie t e ough a d that e eall eed hat e all usto sea h. I othe words, whatever audience you care about, you should be able to search just that audie e a d k o hat the e doi g, ut that did t e ist, a d so hat e did is we started looking at healthcare as an example, and we built something called In Digital Life where we indexed all medical providers, and then we matched them up with their registration number and then their online profile. So then, you can start to see what are all cardiologists saying, or what are all oncologists saying, or what are nurses saying, and how do they interrelate with ea h othe, a d that e a e the fou datio fo hat e all Audie e Architectu e, ut it s asi all If ou e i the o ie usi ess a d ou e putti g out another Harry Potter movie, who are the people who like all the past Harry Potter movies? Where are they? What are they doing? What time of day do they go online? By tracking the right tribes of people, you can actually see exactly what it is that the a t, so ou a alig ith the. That s the esse e of Audie e A hite tu e is u de sta d ho ou audie e is, p oa ti el ide tif ho the a e, hethe it s B2B or B2C, and then understand what they want in terms of content, video, images, time of day, all that stuff. Ho u h ti e does it take to do these effe ti el? No, I k o O iousl that s, ho lo g is a pie e of st i g, ut ho u h ti e a get you a good result? Yeah. O e of the easo s I ite ooks like this is e e looki g at hat people a e doing today, but we think the majority of the world will do is say 3 to 4 years from o, a d so ight o, it s ot ai st ea that people identify the audience, but it s o pletel doa le to do that. At the e least, if ou take a B B audie e Fo e a ple, i te h olog. People ill sa, I do t k o ho to ea h the B B professionals in technology. How do I reach the people who are security experts or elated to the loud? The reality is you just start dissecting who those folks are. What software languages do they care about? What security issues do they care about? If you go from left to right and you figured out all the topics that they care about, you have a basket of topics that can then lead you to the right people. If you put an algorithm against that, of course, you can get very precise, but again, even without an algorithm, you start to break down how few people you really need to reach in each area to make In Transition Podcast - contentgroup Page 3 of 12

a diffe e e, a d that s a s e e e see o e a d o e agai o ld ide is that the e s e fe people that eall ake a diffe e e. Right. You said it really is this narrowing, so this notion of b oad o ig does t eall atte. It s just the o es ho a e esse tial to ou usi ess ho ot o l ill share your content perhaps, but will also behave in the way that you want them to eha e to a hie e the usi ess o je ti e that ou e outli ed. E a tl, a d ou e tio ed go e e t usi ess ea lie, so it s That s a solutel t ue, hat ou said, a d the the othe thi g is if ou ha e a issue that s Let s say you have a nemesis that is coming at you even harder than you are. Actually, you start to look at, how do you reach people who are influential outside of the zo e he e e e o e is talki g? I ll gi e ou a e a ple of this ithout gi i g It s othi g to do ith spe ifi o k, so I do t get i t ou le, ut let s just sa that Mr. Putin was making a lot of noise about something, and it was about the Ukraine. A lot of that conversation occurs between Russia and Ukraine, and people crowd each other out with the noise. If you actually look for people who are advocates of, in this case, the Ukrainians worldwide, you can start to see who has influence by topics and countries that are unrelated to where the noise is occurring, and you can start to crowd source positive content back into the market more effectively by doing that, but people do t usuall thi k like that. The usuall thi k a out like hand-to-ha d o at. If so eo e is o i g afte e, ho do I o e afte the? I al a s thi k of Judo like h ou use so eo e else s po e a d a tuall tu it against them. A e these skills data s ie e skills that ou e goi g to ha e to ha e as pa t of ou team as you start to take advantage of this ability to create and distribute content? Yeah, g eat uestio. I a ig elie e that the o igi al fundamentals that we lea ed as o u i ato s o a kete s a e just as i po ta t as the e e e ee, so you have to have the fundamentals, but you do need to have a knowledge of data science, so you understand how to think in a way. You may be instructing data scientists to give you what you need, but you understand how to do that. Yeah. I think that does help. A e a ple of this ould e like ith o te t, hat e see is F o doi g this a ti es. We e do e this t pe of o k like thousa ds of ti es, a d ou see When you look at a marketplace, the content that a given organisation may be putting out, it may be 60% to 70% of what the market actually wants, but that other 30% to 40% is not on at all. If you actually are looking at the market correctly, you can see what content your audience actually wants, and you can get closer to % of hat the e looki g fo. That makes a big difference in content. A great creative or a great communicator talking to a data scientist can have them figure out what you need, and then you do the a paig s that a e goi g to ake o te t a keti g supe su essful, so that s In Transition Podcast - contentgroup Page 4 of 12

h I thi k it helps us all e o e ette p ofessio als. Yeah, indeed. The power of it is incredible compared to where we were not so long ago. Totally. How fast do you think these change is taking place, and how quickly do people need to be starting to think about retooling their approaches to take advantage of this gift of technology? I elie e it s so ethi g that e e o e should e thi ki g a out ho the do it o because when you have technology allowing you to do this today, you really have to thi k t i e a d sa, Wh ould I p e e t self f o k o i g ho the customers are who drive share of conversation? Why would I not want to know what language to use to get people to reach my story that I spent so much time figu i g out ho to do ell? Wh ould I ot do t a t to k o e a tl hi h channels my customers are in to rea h the o e effe ti el? When you start to think of hat s possi le, ou ealise, Oka. This is You a t do e e thi g i o e da, ut it s a ulti- ea effo t to sa, We e goi g to change, a d e see the est o ga isatio s The just do that. They just say, Oka, got it. Let s go. Pa t of that is pa t of the esse e of the Ma keti g College ith the State Depa t e t is A hile a k, Ed Tazzia and Kip Knight put this togethe, a d the asked a u h of us to joi the as p ofesso s to eally start teaching the fundamentals of marketing and communications, and then how it applies in the digital world. We teach this to embassy spokespeople, and consulate spokespeople, and members of many other functions within the state worldwide. Yeah, ut i go e e t Agai, this pe haps I d e i te ested i ou experience or observations of government and public sector, but the notoriously conservative organisations. Yes. What could be a couple of steps perhaps that people could start? Where are the easy places to get going? Yes. I look at the government really just like a regulated industry. If we work with a pharmaceutical company or a bank, they have a lot of regulatory laws that they have to follow, and so it slows them down, and you have to think about how to i o ate diffe e tl. A go e e t is the sa e a. It a ot e that the e s The egulatio s. Although, that s so e of it. It s also just the i e tia that is slo e inside a government to move things. What does that mean? It means that you do things like, what if you build a library of content in advance that you can get approved, so when you can see the In Transition Podcast - contentgroup Page 5 of 12

a ketpla e e ol i g, ou ha e o e o te t that s al ead app o ed that you can put in the market more quickly that is aligned with what people are doing, or what are all the things that you can do that are really zero-risk that anyone could be doing? In other words, when I think of like the Twitter example, I think of it like a If ou e uildi g a edia et o k a d the go e e t od o a o pa is thi ki g like a edia p ope t, ou sa, Oka. A I follo i g the ight people i each channel, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, et cetera? Then, if I am, am I providing the ight o te t i o de to tell ou sto togethe? A o e a do that. Regulatio s ha e othi g to do ith that, so I al a s look at like, What a e all the things you can do with zero risk? What are the things you can do with very low risk? The things that are longer-te, oka, e ll get to those e t ea. Oka. That s eall good ad i e. I thi k that to just pi k up those tasks that a e o o e ould o je t to e ause it s ot goi g to e a p o le, ut the, ho do ou sell the message up the line? How do you then get that message up to those senior executives and through that senior executive layer up to the political layer where they can understand and appreciate the benefits that this can deliver to their particular program, or service, or regulation, or regulatory organisation? Yeah. Agai, a g eat poi t, a d it s Without sa i g a thi g that I get I e got to e a eful, I guess, i a spe ifi details, ut I do t thi k go e e ts a e a different than companies in this regard in that if you can train and teach the top leaders of an organisatio, ou ake a diffe e e. If ou do t, the ou do t. O e of the thi gs that e I o siste tl sa i a ki d of t ai i g is if ou e t ai i g the people who are on the frontlines and they can get better at what they do, that s g eat, a d that defi itel helps, ut ou ha e to The osses ha e to e trained too. The osses just a t sa, I on board. Let s do this. I do t fi d that that eall o ks, a d so e e al a s pushi g to get highe le el i ol e e t, highe le el knowledge, broaden out the reach. Government moves slower that way where o pa ies ill sa, You e ight. Let s go t ai people o ld ide, a d let s go make this happen. Yeah. Look, I thi k the slo o e e t of go e e t, the e s a pu pose to it really. Yeah. You do t a t it to ope ate like a private sector organisation. Absolutely, absolutely. I te s of getti g the atte tio of those people agai, I get that, ut the e oto iousl us. We e got so a thi gs to do. I e got so a people a ti g In Transition Podcast - contentgroup Page 6 of 12

to get a sha e of ti e. So a a t to get atte tio. What s so e ad i e that you would have to people in terms of composing an argument to them or a o i i g a gu e t that ould get the to thi k, Oka, that is o th I do t k o, a hou, hou s, hou s of ti e? What is the est ti e of the da to coach senior executives? Yes, a couple things in there. One is when people are not seeing why they should do something from a digital standpoint. One of the more effective approaches is to actually do a landscape analysis that shows who is telling the story for the topics that the e e uti e o leade a es a out. What I fi d is he ou a sa, He e s ho s telli g this sto. He e s ho s i flue i g the eputatio of hat ou a e a out, ho s defi i g the issues that ou a e a out, hat the ofte ealise is the do t k o a of these folks o the k o e fe of the, a d so the eal Then, the follow-up is if ou e o fo ta le allo i g othe people to fo ou eputatio ithout ou, that s g eat. Nothi g to talk a out, ight? If ou ould prefer to be involved in shaping your own brand or your own reputation, we need to do so ethi g, a d that s usuall e ough fo a leade to do e a tl hat ou just do. The go like It s a laughi g o e t to sa, Oka, this is sill. We got to do something a out that. The othe thi g I fi d is othi g ette tha getti g e e uti es i ol ed i of a t pe. A e a ple ould e, let s sa, ou e t i g to do out ea h i a e tai country for a certain topic. Why not do a guest blog series over time? Nothing extraordinary, but have that leader reach out to people they know to do Q&As, or to do, Ask uestio s a d get a s e s, o featu e o e of thei f ie ds o thei log, a d ou sta t to i g the o u it that ou e t i g to ea h i to ou community. By bear hugging that community, they of course usually love that, and then tell all their friends, so you start to integrate your reach or expand your reach more, but it also gets more personal. Like anything in life, when things get more personal, e d pa o e atte tio. What ou e suggesti g though, oka, is to eall assist those e e uti es to g o their own reach and influence by demonstrating their expertise and sharing the i fo atio a d k o ledge that the e a ui ed a y, many years? Yes, exactly. Exactly, and what happens naturally with leaders is they will then start to look at this o e losel, a d the ha e thei o If the e ot as digitall savvy, they may have a very unique view of what they think the world thinks of the, a d the ou a sa like, Well, this is a tuall hat the o ld is eall believes in what ou ha e do e, a d the ealise, Oka. This is ot o l i po ta t fo the a d o eputatio o k that I espo si le fo, I have a role in this. I ha e to ha e a igge oi e i o de to o e that eedle. Whe that happe s, the ou ha e a g eat futu e g eat leade ship, ut it does t al a s happe. Big organisations of any type, not everyone is going to do that, but you get enough people doing it, others pay attention. In Transition Podcast - contentgroup Page 7 of 12

How do you find those who are perhaps a little bit more predisposed to learning and to getting involved? Any tips around how you can identify where to start? Yeah. This is where I goi g to go a k to Dell da s as a e a ple. We had a lot of Ou leade s e e g eat, e s a t, a d us just as ou said efo e. What I found is if I went to the middle of the organisation and asked people if they would participate, they were hungry, and they wanted to, and they would commit the time. Once they started to do that and participating online, and people were liking hat the e e doi g, the leade s a o e the ake up to go, He, hat a out e? Ho o e ou did t ask e? It s like, Oh, I did t k o ou e e i te ested. Wh do t ou joi us? I fou d that a little good old-fashioned craftiness can wake people up and get them going. It works, and it went up. Away from training and back to this notion of the use of tools, what suggestions might you have for the audience about the tools that they should assemble and the tools that they should be using to try to gather these insights into the audience a ou d the o te t a d the dist i utio that the e goi g to eed to engage themselves in? Yes. One of the things I try to do in Storytizing and also in Pre-Commerce is focus o hat I all I telle tuall -S ala le Models. What I ould e ou age people to do is if ou e Head of Co u i atio s is as a example is to really think through that it is that you need to be looking at. A great example would be a dashboard that people look at, a d I al a s joke a ou d like, Most dash oa ds sho ou a lot of stuff, a d ou ha e o idea hat it ea s. Yes, ou an read about your organisatio. You a see it, ut ou do t k o hat to do a out it. The e s o a tio a le i tellige e that ou e getti g, so stop looki g at that stuff a d sta t to thi k, What do I a tuall eed to follo, so I a e s a te? I ll gi e ou a e a ple of this. It ould o l e that the e s ha els that ou eed to e looki g at fo a topi. Follo those, o ou ould sa, I goi g to identify the top 50 people that matter for me on a topic, and I want to look at what the e doi g e e da e ause the e a tuall d i i g the a ket, so I a t to look at the e sus all the othe oise. You a do that. This da a d age, as ou know, with Sysomos or Hootsuite or Sprinklr, or many tools where if you can just tweak it enough, you can actually just get what you need and cut out all the noise, but the key thing is try to focus on what it is that you really are going to learn from. In a general sense, what do you think of the things that people should be looking at to gi e the that est u de sta di g of the dist i utio of the othe data that s helping them to uncover those insights around the content that needs to be created? Yeah. Whe e talk a out that, the e s fu da e tals of edia effi ie that I always go back to that we found continue to work over the last 10 years worldwide. One of them is what we just talked about, which is make sure you have In Transition Podcast - contentgroup Page 8 of 12

actionable insights so you can act on when you need to and stop nothing short at getti g the e. The se o d is the tale t. You e i the tale t usi ess. K o ho is actually telling your story, and know who is influencing those people, and ask ou self if ou e a tuall fo i g the right relationships with them. Also, are you building out the next generation of talent? A g eat o u i atio s pe so is thi ki g th ough, Who a e the e t,, people ho eall a e t o ed ith hat the e doi g, ut the e ot fa ous e ough et, ut e e goi g to help the get the e e ause e e goi g to asi all o pletel shape ou e os ste? That s the se o d. The thi d is la guage. What a e the a tual ke o ds, a d the e s usuall ot o e tha, that you can use that will align people with your story? The fourth there is content, which I talked about, making sure you know what content really matters, and then the fifth is channel. If we look at social media, the e s o l ha els of so ial edia, so e e thi g fits i to one of the 10. Basically, people usually heard internet active in more than about 4 for any topic fo hat ou a e a out, so do t o a out goi g e e he e. Just o a out going to the channels where people hang out. I find that those 5 things end up centering you on doing the right thing and not getting distracted by the latest squirrel that flew by. What are your views about offline communications, things like events and say traditional public relations working with media organisations? Yeah. Still important to you? Very important, but in a different way. I think what we always knew about events as the ould e g eat. The e e iti g. The get people s atte tio, a d that attention goes away as fast as it comes, and so what we can now see with analytics is that s a solutel t ue. Whethe it s a ad e tisi g a paig lau h, o a ig event, or a press conference, they usually have like that one big day where everyone is paying attention. It might be a little longer than that, but usually, not a lot. He e s the thi g that s eall ool. What e see is he ou at h people s atte tio, the e ide a ake. You audie e is a ake. If ou gi e the ele a t o te t that s ot news-worthy, you can extend that conversation for weeks and e e o ths, a d e e seei g this o e a d o e agai that if ou k o ho ou top 1% or who create content, but more importantly, your top 9% in the 1-9-90 model, the people who will share content if you give it to them because they love what you do. If you give them video Q&As, a slide deck, a tweet, a whitepaper, and it s o the sa e topi, the ill keep talki g, a d sha i g, a d talki g, a d sha i g. The e s a o te t elasti it that e are still learning about, which is critical to In Transition Podcast - contentgroup Page 9 of 12

e pa di g the po e of o u i atio s. I the futu e, e ll k o, Oka. This topic like will go for a week. This topic will go for 3 weeks. This topic is endless. This topi, o o e a es a out, a d so ou an start to see then how to tweak your a paig s. That leads to hat e all Agile Ca paig i g, hi h is, ho do ou wake up a market, but then keep feeding it appropriately forever after? Oka, that s a g eat i sight. What a out PR edia? Yeah. It s a solutel i po ta t. I thi k that ou ha e a oade ie of edia. What we see, again, through doing this quite a bit is that if you have a financial topi, ou ha e o a go e e t topi he e it s like a o siste t topi that people are going to talk about, yeah, you may have more journalists covering you, and it may be a consistent group that is clearly listening to what you say, but for the ajo it of topi s, that s ot the ase, a d ou ha e a i of just o al people, logge s, jou alists depe di g o the topi. It s othe i dust e pe ts, and so understanding that mix is really important. Mo e i po ta tl, hat e e seei g i edia elatio s, hi h is eall ke fo PR, is we can see who influences who. In other words, who influences a journalist? If ou ask the, ou k o the a s e. The ll sa o o e, ut if ou a tuall Right? Be ause it s ot possi le that a o e ould i flue e the, ut he ou a tuall look o li e, ou see the e s, of ou se, a lot of people influencing them, so you can see that it might be a subject matter expert here. It could be a physician. It could be an NSA expert, and then you start to see who you need to work with to influence. Media relations is actually expanding in its breath in terms of how we do it well, but a lot of companies and organisations as you still know and government as well, they still go out to the traditional journalists and try to get them to write traditional stories, and then they high five because they thi k the did thei jo. That s eall just the very beginning of the process. Yeah. Yeah, i deed. Just o e fi al o e efo e e go e ause e e ha d up agai st time. Could you give me some examples just going back to that point 1 that these 5 fundamentals, these actionable insights? Yeah. If you could just give me an example perhaps of what a handful of actionable insights might look like. Yes. Let e gi e ou so e We e do e a lot of ork in the movie industry over the ea s. I o t sa the o ie, ut o e of the I ll just tell ou hat it is, ut Yeah. We e i Aust alia. We e a lo g a a a, so do t Yeah. No, ut it s like he ou look at like Harry Potter, for example. In Transition Podcast - contentgroup Page 10 of 12

Okay. You k o ho a people lo e Ha Potte, a d the e s o l I o e of thei ke ou t ies fo Ha Potte, the e s o l people to d i e the ajo it of sha e of conversation, yet the e s illio s of people talki g a out it. If ou go out to the influencers and allow them to carry content sooner, then you actually have more impact on the audience than if you go out with traditional direct mail, or emails, or things like that. Now, why is that? The easo is it s fa o e ele a t he a audience gets to inform itself than if an organisation informs for it, and so when ou look at like ates of i te est, the e ot like ti e ette. The e like,, ti es ette. It s ot e e close, and so that kind of thing, we see all the time. That s a e a ple. Yeah, I know. Fantastic. Listen, Bob. Thank you so much for sharing those great examples and your wisdom that is in Storytizing, and before that, in Pre-Commerce, so I think that a lot of people will be now going out and buying both of those books I think because the insights there will really help them to start this transition really to get themselves moving and to start to take some of those actions that you have mentioned, so they can improve the efficiency and the effectiveness of their o u i atio, ut liste. Fo the audie e, hat s the est a fo the to e a le to sta o e ted to a lot of the o k that ou e outli ed fo us toda? Yeah. The est a is M T itte ha dle is @ o pea so 8. That happe s to be the year that Texas joined the United States, just in the side, and then also, you a just go to ou site, og oup. o, a d e ha e a log the e alled Co o Se se. We ha e a lot of great interviews on there and everything else, but I also a t to o pli e t ou. I thi k hat ou e doi g is g eat. I lo e the fa t that pod asti g is eall e o i g a st o g as e e, a d it s I app e iate the opportunity. Yeah, Bob. No problem at all, and thanks very much for that, and we enjoy it like I lo e ha i g these o e satio s of I e got pages of otes sitti g i f o t of e o, just s i li g thi gs do as e spoke. I e ee i this usi ess fo a lo g, long time, but whenever you speak to people like we do on this podcast, you al a s lea. The e a e al a s thi gs that ou e e e thought of efo e, so thanks very much for being so generous with your time. Good luck with W2O and e e thi g else that s goi g on. Great. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Okay, everyone. Thank you very much for your time again this week. That was a e, e useful i te ie, a d I su e that ou ill take so u h a a f o that. As I said, like so much in that for me. Just incredible amounts of insight, so have a othe I e ko that s o th a ouple of liste s. If I e e ou, I thi k I d go a k as I will, and go and have another good listen to what Bob has got to say. In Transition Podcast - contentgroup Page 11 of 12

I ll e tai l be going to W2O a little bit more, looking at Common Sense, following Bo, a d getti g th ough a little it o e of the Sto tizi g ook. I e got a little a th ough it, ut I e got a it o e to go. A tuall, I ha e t got P e-commerce, so I ll go a k and buy that, but anyway, there you go. Listen. Thanks, everyone. Thanks for being with me again this week. I look forward to a bit more of your time next week, so just for the moment, bye for now. In Transition Podcast - contentgroup Page 12 of 12