MR, RU3T (Ia.): While we are readily admitting there are

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1 230 CHAIM BRAY: Thank you, Ed., for those very good remarks. I know that most of you are aware that Ed. has served as Superintendent of the Beef Carcass Contest, Quality Beef Contest, at the International for the last several years and has developed some real good ideas with it. One of the things he didn't mention, and perhaps he is too modest to talk about something he has been doing out there, and that is to talk about trying to put into that contest some of the factors that may be associated with productivity. In other words, he has set up a minimum live weight and last year a minimum carcass weight for entries in each of the various age classes which tend to get pounds as well as the right kind in the right proportion. Next on our schedule here is a discussion of the previous two papers and to lead this discussion is Dr. R. A. Merkel of KanGas State University. Bob. DR, MERKEL: Thank you, Bob. We have heard the objectives of carcass contests and then we have heard the outlines for the Beef Carcass, Lamb Carcass, and Pork Carcass Evaluation Contests. Without any comments from me, I am going to throw it open to you because this is the first time this particular Committee has reported and I am sure there are a good many questions fromthe audience, so it is now up to you to ask questions and direct them at the speakers. MR, RU3T (Ia.): While we are readily admitting there are many errors in evaluation of carcasses, I think we are going to have to standardize to eliminate a large amount of very complicated conversation, and so on. In the case of Iowa, we are running into several hundred hog carcasses at the Spring Barrow Shows and we have generally now standardized on using hams and loins because these are two cuts, are weights that are readily available and it takes about half the time to get this as it does to weigh four lean cuts and we have felt that while this might not be ideal, this is certainly about all we can elrpect to accomplish, as we are running into a very large number of carcasses. I think this is sollhething which wants to be consistent in establishing these methods for evaluating carcasses where large number of carcasses are available. And I also want to interject this point. Ne also want to remember that the m&n who produced this animal that is in our carcass shew may have also produced the gilt or heifer or new lamb, as the case may be, and we certainly have to think about these production factors. For example, take length in hogs, while it may not have any direct relationship to the carcass, certainly is considered a rather important point in the case of the swine producer who is picking out this gilt hog to produce pigs. You want to remember that the man who produced the barrow also produced the gilt and he may be going back into the herd.

2 231 DR. MER=: very pertinent. Thank you, Bob. I think those remarks a r e very, MR. KEMP: In l i n e w i t h the thing that Bob said, I am wondering i f any of you have had anything t o do with the r a i s i n g o r changing of the standards of t h e National Association of Swine Record Assns., where they now require a 29-inch size? There i s l i t t l e correlation between t h a t length and cut-out value and I wonder i f t h a t extra half Inch or inch i s going t o a f f e c t very many good hogs? I am a f r a i d it w i l l. And a lot of contests are automaticall y eliminated because they don't meet the requirements of t h i s Association. DR. MERKEL: that? Thank you, J i m. Does anybody want t o comment on Chairman Bray, while I t h i n k it is a good point, I don't know if anybody i n here was consultedabout t h i s change o r not. J u s t talking t o them r e l a t i v e t o Bob's point about the importance of length i n hogs, I think most results now indicate t h a t t h e relationship between length and cut-out is not a very good one e i t h e r one way o r t h e other. It is not negative o r positive t o any appreciable extent, And h i s point that length may be r e l a t e d t o productivity may be so. I have often wondered though i f the data t h a t we have used t o support t h i s wasn't based on short, f a t hogs rather than short, medium hogs, whether o r not the medium hogs a r e s t i l l, even though somewhat short, might be j u s t as productive as somewhat longer hogs? I know t h a t t h i s i s quite an important point with the breed associations and they have decided t o use it. I think though that t h i s lends further support t o studies involving meat type hogs, muscular hogs, and t h e i r productivity i n r e l a t i o n t o length. MR. IIUSI?: DR, MERKEL: Thank you, Bob. 3 c e r t a i n l y agree with those comments. But whenever we a r e working w i t h these carcass contests, I think we have a l l run i n t o the problem of being c r i t i cized f o r picking a hog that has been s a t i s f a c t o r y on the short side and with t h e change i n t h e requirement f o r c e r t i f i c a t i o n I j u s t wonder w h a t the future holds. Now are there any other questions? MR. GLENN I(EAN: I would l i k e t o r a i s e one question that has been of concern t o me. Seems t o me i n the International, a l l of t h a, f o r that matter, t h a t we as meat men are s e t t i n g ourselves up as an authority when we place the carcass as first, and immediately the first i s news, and perhaps those who judged l i v e were way off, and I don't t h i n k e i t h e r one should pose as a top man. I would l i k e t o hear w h a t Bob has t o say. He has made several comments on t h a t, I wonder i f there i s anything w e can do t o stave off the publicity that i s p i t t i n g the l i v e judge against the carcass judge. I f o r one have f e l t that any carcass contest i s a producer's contest rather than f o r the packer 100s.

3 232 When we start measurfng things on a s t r i c t l y dollars and cents basis, we might as w e l l get a bunch of kids t o measure them and figure out the figures and not have honest men. Headl i n e s come out, "Carcass j m e way o f f, Top put on steer that took tenth place," and that kind of business that causes a l o t of antagonism, and we as a group a r e coming i n f o r quite a l o t of c r i t i c i s m on t h a t. CHAIRMAN BRAY: That 1 s quite a l o t t o answer. I am j u s t the Chairman of t h i s Committee. I knew we were going t o get t o a topic sooner o r l a t e r i n this Conference where we were going t o pick up a l i t t l e steam. It has been kind of dead f o r a l i t t l e while. Larry has something t o say back therc. Maybe he wants t o answer t h i s. But 1w i l l go ahead with a thought here, i n connection with what you have said. I think t h a t i s correct, that newspager people, people who don't appreciate the small differences t h a t e x i s t between entries, a r e often prone t o grab t h i s as something to headline, t h a t the l i v e animal judges have missed with regard t o w h a t we s o r t of a r b i t r a r i l y set up as t h e correct answer, the carcass placing, Now I think t h i s i s unfortunate because I don't believe t h i s 1s the ixkent of having a live animal evaluation o r l i v e animal placing p r i o r t o t h e carcass judging. I think t h e in- t e n t here i s t o give spectators, exhibftors and others an opportunity t o view these animals and then a t the same time to t r y t o study them i n r e l a t i o n t o w h a t they think they a r e going t o be when hung up. This is the way it has been handled. The publicity though has s o r t of gone the other way. I might say thoueh i n defense of some of the judges, and I see Larry R. i i l e back there, who has been one of the judges on our Quality Beef Contest here a t Cfiicago, he and Bob Long and the other members of t h e Committee did a real exceptional job i n selecting out t h e top e n t r i e s t h i s past year and we hope they a r e s t a r t i n g t o f i n d the key now t o unlock t h i s l i v e animal and show us the way t o the right kind of carcass i n t h e l i v e form. I don't know whether I have answered your question a t a l l. I think it i s unfortuaate T h a t too muc3 publicity has been gi.;en us. If t h i s i s going t o be a detzrrent i n the advancement of a carcass contest perh8ps we w i l l have t o eliminate showing them a l i v e p r i o r t o slaughter. NEMBER: That's what 1 was thinking, could we eliminate a showing of ar,imej.s? L e t the Committee make i t s mind up and l e t e&ch iniiiridual spect.stor mzke h i s mind up, I wonder i f that might be an agyoach sometime? MR. KUMCLE: I have two comments now. F i r s t, on Glen's point, the reason I think we s t a r t e d with the l i v e animal is because t h a t is t h e negotiable package. That i s w h a t the man who has been breeding animals must decide. What would he do i f

4 233. he took a truckload of such beasts, converted them t o carcass and didn't l i k e the price he was offered f o r the carcass? You can't eat a whole truckload of t h a t kind of perishable product. A s long as they are a l i v e and breathing he can f i n d somebody e l s e who i s willing t o buy. Perhaps t h a t i s enough on that subject. I n answer t o the concern whether meat people have been invited t o help establish standards f o r t h i s Breed Association that the National Associat i o n of Swine Breed Register Section is close t o me and I am quite w i l l i n g t o confess that I was thirty-three and one-third per cent of a committee called from Purdue University a f e w years ago. W e went there with some ideas. And it wasntt very long u n t i l Carroll Plager and Eunkle were somewhat pushed on t o refinements t h a t I didn't think would work. And I have one witness who went home from there saying we went too far with t h i s, t h a t we should never have t r i e d t o set up specific lengths, square inches of r i b eye, so much on 200-pound hogs, and 220-pound hogs, because it is too complicated. The Hampshire folks and other folks who followed i n t h a t weight made the thing work, at least up t o t h i s past year. Now that i s history. All of us a r e interested i n the future. This happened last April. The Secretaries were together and it is my understanding they wanted t o simplify, which out of t h e other side of my mouth I w i l l have t o confess I thought was going backwards now. They f e l t, and all they did was rep o r t on the telephone, "This is what w e are going t o do." It doesn't have your blessing and I confess I was too far away and too many miles of telephone wire t o debate with him. So, l e t ' s t r y it and see what happens. Now i f I were t o predict t h e thing that is wrong w i t h t h i s simplification it is that it operates too loosely f o r t h e fellow who wants t o make a game out of m i n e breeding and feeding improvements. Who would take a hog t o town t h a t w8s 135 o r 145 days of age. One of the things I t h i n k a l l of us i n t h i s room considered t o be a v i r t u e of swine production, times doe6 mean something t o the owner of a hog. They are going t o keep them u n t i l they are 179 o r 180 days old, t o be sure and make t h i s &inch, square inch, r i b eye. And then, you see, we are going t o be penalizing the e f f i e i e n t product both i n feed u t i l i z a t i o n and i n economy. opinion. That's my personal We have had word back from Merle Judd's o f f i c e saying they realized maybe they did move i n t o a vulnerable area. They are going t o see it through t h i s year because they a r e obligated. I expect a l l of you w i l l have a chance t o r e g i s t e r your opinions and I imagine they would be receptive t o it i n t h e i r meeting next fall. MR. BRATZLER (Mich. State): The remarks t h a t I am going t o make are i n opposition t o one another. I was a very strong

5 advocate a t one time of the dollar and cents evaluation of hogs. I changed my opinion a f t e r serving at the National Barrow Show f o r a couple of years. There are some things that you can't measure i n one, two, threz, and four. You own a car w i t h so many cylinders and certain tolerances and so many t i r e s, and so forth, but unless it i s i n an a t t r a c t i v e package it i s not going t o s e l l. I t h i n k we s t i l l need some subjective measurements o r estimation o r judgment i n the type of package t h a t we are presenting t o the public. Who i s going t o buy the products? The other opposite is, it has been my feeling i n carcass judging, a t the Quality Neat Judging here i n Chicago, and I would be a6 g u i l t y as the next one, when we see t h i s ultimate i n quality of the r i b eye of t h e lamb o r beef, we have a tendency t o overlook t h e amount of f a t on the outside. It i s the hardest thing t o get a group of judges i n observing them t o say t h a t t h i s i s enough quality with an acceptable amount of outside o r ext e r n a l finish. DR. MERKEL: Thank you, Lyman. Anyone e l s e wish t o speak? MR. RUST: I would l i k e t o follow up on a couple of comments here, making it a contest between the l i v e judges and carcass judges. I think t h i s i s one of t h e good points of the National Barrow Show. That is, they r e a l l y drive the hogs through f o r the spectators t o vlew. And t h i s i s the very basis t h a t t h i s suggestion i s based upon, t h i s problem of a contest between the l i f e judge and t h e carcass judge. This happened t o be a f a c t o r of making a combination placement on the basis of l i v e performance, carcass performance, and a l s o the l i v e value, I think i s one suggestion that w i l l attempt t o eliminate t h i s problem. MR. MACKINTOSH: I t h i n k the philosophy of t h i s was indicated by our Chairman when he was l i s t i n g the objectives. He indicated t h a t competition should stimulate i n t e r e s t. I t h i n k a l l of us here a r e o l d enough, some of us a t l e a s t, t o r e c a l l when a l l of t h e steers and all of the hogs a t the International and p r a c t i c a l l y a l l the other shows were way beyond t h e u t i l i t y stage as far as meat was concerned. As a r e s u l t of o m contests, w e have created i n t e r e s t and I think t o create i n t e r e s t i s one of t h e primary objectives of any contest of t h i s nature as a r e s u l t of t h a t interest, including t h e l i v e judge and the carcass judge. I think we w i l l a11 have t o agree that we have brought about very marked changes i n the selection of our livestock t o not o f f e r t h a t which was done a few years ago. We talked about it f o r years but it was not u n t i l the contest idea was taken up a t more than one point and given publicity that we r e a l l y had any influence on our livestock judges. I believe t h a t the point of i n t e r e s t alone is of as much value a s the economic side because it creates a desire t o i m prove on the p a r t of the producer.

6 DR. MEFKEL: very w e l l taken. Thank you, Davey. That i s c e r t a i n l y a point MR, BOB DEANS: I think t h a t we had b e t t e r be careful as t o what t o o l s we use on these. I noticed a t the Waterloo Show, Ed., t h a t under one there they say, "Add and subtract 4 per carcass weight f o r each -01 square inch of l o i n eye." Mow we a r e using a method which we f i n d gives half t h e variation we get with t h i s technique and we can't produce the same loin eye muscle t o.01 square inch. It kind of seems it i s cutting it p r e t t y t h i n t o start evaluating something t h a t you can't measure. MR. SCIpoOI"ER ( W y o. ) f J u s t before leaving Laramie we received some specifications from the American Corriedale Association and apparently they are using it as a basis f o r Corriedale Lamb Shows as reported here i n the Waterloo Iamb Evaluation Contest. I don't know whether any of the rest of you are familiar with it o r not. But I wonder j u s t how good t h i s i s and a l s o wonder how many premiums they w i l l take withi n the next few years on Corriedale lambs a t any show? DR. MERlcEfi: Any other questions? MEMBER: f wanted t o conrment t h a t a t our Florida State Beef Contest the rules f o r entry i n the carcass contest a r e t h a t the animals on foot should be graded on foot, Prime o r Choice. T h i s eliminated many of the Goods and Standards that we f e l t were placed i n the Carcass Contest, It gave us what w e thought was the p o s s i b i l i t y for 6ome of the Choice breaking i n t o t h e Prime, and some of the Prime going out. At the same time, we said that the Place should be the highest placing animal. We had t h e medium weights and the heavy weights. And since then they have been changed, and by placing our e n t r i e s i n t h e Carcass Contest i n an e f f o r t t o have a good on-foot evaluation o r t o go f o r trimness, and the on-foot judge didn't s e l e c t any of the Prime animals that turned out t o be Prime i n the carcass. Consequently, they were not e l i g i b l e f o r the carcass contest. This, we feel, gave us an inheritance that we didn't p a r t i c u l a r l y want. Since then we have expanded the number so we would not inh e r i t t h i s same advantage. Basically, I agree w i t h t h i s basis f o r trimness. And a t the same time we l i k e the prerogative of looking a t Prime cattle i n t h e Carcass Contest. If we had our way we would l i k e t o encourage the idea t h a t everything would be e l i g i b l e f o r the Carcass Contest. We recognize it i s going t o run the numbers up, i n an e f f o r t t o do away with the idea of not having a l l the animals we would l i k e t o have i n t h e carcass contest. L e t me ask how many other groups a r e running DR. ME-: into t h e very same thing, i n other words, having elimination by placing o r grades of e n t r i e s i n t o the contest?

7 236 MR. HECK (Arkansas): I would 1.ike to amend what Dave said back here. I am not nearly as concerned about pitting the livestock judge against the meat Judge. I think we are going to have to have that entry, we are going to have to have the stimulation of that critical evaluation on foot, so that our producers who are supposedly better trained than we train ourselves to kind of look under that hide to see how well we can evaluate them as compared to what it ier in the carcass. And regardless if you olilsinate one of the others you are going to have criticism, anyway. You are going to have to live with it. MR, MULLINS (La. State): Regardless of what has been said, I find it highly desirable to marry the livestock judge and the meat judge, and put both on comn ground so they are not competing with each other. Neither one is put up as an authority but they are on common ground- I think we will have sufficient interest if we do that and we will move forward to better evaluation on both pieces. MR. MERKEL: Any other questions? If not, I think we have certainly seen a lot of the limitations and problems in the contest brought up here and we certainly want to thank you for your discussion. CHAIRMAN BMY: Well, we have two more stimulants on the program, Dr. Cole and Dr. Walters, and first on the program to stimldate ~rou regarding the Merits of SubJective and Objective Methods of Carcass Evaluation. Dr. Bill Cole.